Talk:Isaac's Greater Missile Storm
THIS SPELL IS TOO POWERFUL This spell is the most powerful damaging spell in the game bar none since the spell has these characteristics: * No touch attacks * Magical damage - Cannot be resisted * No save ** These three factors makes it the perfect spell for a scroll except for its spell resistance, but of course not everyone has spell resistance anyway. * High damage, 2d6 per level, a minimum of 22d6 (the spell is gained at a minimum of level 11 as a wizard), and a maximum 40d6 damage at level 20. ** Against a single target in the area (eg; a large monster like a dragon) this does its capped 10 missile damage of 20d6 damage. * Removes spell mantles like cake (and for the same reason it also does many SR checks * Area effect spell (unlike Disintegrate). As long as at least 2 targets are in the affected area, all the missiles work. If only one target is in the area, 10 missiles hit it anyway (the rest are discarded). * Level 6 spell only, meaning: ** Can be Empowered (using a level 8 spell slot), doing 2d6 * 1.5 damage (minimum 3, maximum 18) per missile / level, meaning a minimum of 60 at level 20, and a maximum of 360 damage. ** Can be Maximized (using a level 9 spell slot) always dealing 240 damage. ** Is not affected by lower saves such as what Disintegrate uses (which is also level 6). ** Is not affected by any Spell Globes, unlike lesser missile storm. Comparable magic dealing spells: Disintegrate (same level and similar damage) and Horrid Wilting (an area effect doing magical damage): * Disintegrate does 2d6 damage / level to a single target, requiring a touch attack, and the target gets a fortitude and if saves, will only take 5d6 damage instead. Requires spell resistance. * Horrid wilting does 1d6 points of magic damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6 (minimum of 15d6 due to being level 8), to all creatures in the target area. Level 8 spell (cannot be maximized or empowered), requires a fortitude save for half damage, and spell resistance applies. * Issac's Greater Missile Storm does 2d6 damage / level to 1 or more target. Against a single target, it does 20d6 damage (due to the minimum caster level needed to cast this spell), with no save, touch attack, or chance to stop it. Against 2 targets or more, it does the full damage (minimum 24d6, maximum 40d6). Requires spell resistance. As we can see; a level 8 spell is outclassed by a level 6 spell on all counts unless against a large amount of low-fortitude saving enemies. The sizes of the area of effects are the same for horrid wilting and missile storm (although a bug means Horrid Wiltings area is huge in 1.03 however), and empowered, which also takes up a level 8 slot, we know deals a lot more damage then normal (up to 360 damage! and an average of 210 damage. In comparison it'd need 3.5 targets, in the same area, who all have failed their saves, to match the average damage using Horrid Wilting, while missile storm could target 2 targets for a guaranteed amount of damage.). Disintegrate, doing the same damage amount, which is considered high for level 6 because of its special attack - a touch attack, fortitude save and SR are needed, and it only can affect one target. Issacs Greater Missile storm beats both in almost all situations. To compare it to magic missile, which it is loosely based on: * Magic missile deals 1d4 + 1 damage per 2''' caster levels, to a maximum of 5 missiles (5d4 + 5 damage in total). Single target, no save, no to hit, spell resistance applies. * Lesser Missile Storm deals 1d6 damage per level, to a maximum of 10 missiles (10d6 damage in total). Can be single targeted if there is only one creature, but otherwise area effect. No save, to hit, spell resistance applies. * Greater Missile Storm deals '''2d6 damage per level, to a maximum of 20 missiles (40d6 damage in total). Can be single targeted if there is only one creature (20d6 damage done), but otherwise area effect (2 targets get the full 10 missiles each if at level 20). No save, to hit, spell resistance applies. It is insanely powerful. Magic Missile is balanced on the fact it is low damage (Burning Hands for instance, does 1d4 / level fire damage to an area) but it requires no save and always hits (while Burning Hands requires a reflex save, for instance). The original 3.5E spell also allowed multiple targets to be chosen - likely the inspiration for the missile storms - although even at level 9, 5 x 1d4 + 1 missiles were not too useful to distribute. Making the damage even 1d6, and double the missiles of magic missile, is powerful. Make it 2d6 damage, up to 20 missiles, and it gets insane with 40d6 damage. This can do more damage then Meteor swarm, a level 9 spell, at level 6, due to having no save, and being unresistible damage, and even nearly matching Meteor Swarms 4-missile attack damage in some cases! The most profound effects are against single target monsters. A "boss" can have 20d6 damage done to them per round, if alone and not surrounded by cohorts. Are they surrounded by cohorts? Then the mage and party can simply kill the cohorts who likely will be much weaker, then target the boss himself with the spell. Dragons die very easily from this if the spell Assay Resistance can lower their spell resistance to its effects, especially if maximised or empowered. A 600 hit point dragon requires 5 maximized greater missile storms (at 120 damage each, ie 10 2d6 missiles maximised) to kill it. Sorcerers and prepared Wizards easily can perform this, or use Empower to get a 1.5 modifier to all damage done by it, to prepare a few spare ones if one or two don't affect it. Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm suffers similar problems and even with lower damage can be considered similar. Possible fixes At least two or more of these would have to be done for the spell to be remotely balanced: * Lower the damage per missile greatly * Raise the level it can be cast at * Alter its effects, eg; not make it magical damage, make it a full blown AOE spell rather then a single target spell which could affect multiple enemies. * Cap the amount of missiles per target down to 1 or 2 per target, or so to turn it into a proper AOE spell where there is no cap to missiles, but the damage done to each target in the area is much lower. * Add touch attacks, saves, or some way to reduce damage * Remove the spell entirely which is my personal preference for several good reasons. There is no need for it to exist with better balanced alternatives for a start, and it isn't a core 3.5E spell, and is not used by module builders unless they are really mean due to it being so powerful and it easily killing a PC!! ** EG: A PC fighter at level 20 has 20 * d10 hit points = 200 base. Plus a (somewhat optimistic) +5 bonus from constitution makes 300 hit points. Maximised Issac's Greater Missile Storm (available at level 17 for a wizard) does 120 damage to a single target if its the only one in the area, and the fighter can die in 3 rounds from this. Even the base spell, available at level 11, will be able to deal an average of 20d6 damage per hit, meaning 60 per spell (likely more reliably then Disintegrate due to its lack of a fortitude save and touch attack). It'd take 6 rounds of the normal greater missile storm to kill a level 20 fighter, by a level 11 caster (it is debatable that if the fighter got to the level 11 caster he'd survive for 6 rounds of course, but that is besides the point). Empowered, it'd of course take 4 rounds on average (due to 1.5 times damage, so 90 per hit). ** Lower level PC's suffer a lot more, and at level 11, an enemy wizard using it against a small party can kill members in one go (especially opposing mages - 20d6 damage from 10 missiles hitting you can take down 44-55 hit points of a mage in one go...) Gameplay Notes I consider this Cheese. You can use it and it will defeat next to any encounter, in any module, bar those which add magical damage resistance (which should not exist) to all monsters, or have heavy heavy caster resting limits, which would stop the effectiveness of this spell and, in fact, any others too. --Little note, there is a rumour that the first level spell Shield will be extended to offer immunity to both Missile Storms. --A note on TT and damage type The damage time should actually be force but that's another story. And Force resistance although rare does occure for example the crystaline dragons and Force Adept prestiege class found in Complete Arcane. - Andarious 04/12/08 p.s. This spell is hugely IMBA even with Force Resistance.